From billc@minerva.phyast.pitt.edu Fri Jan 20 19:02:07 EST 1995
Article: 149947 of alt.atheism
Path: newsfeed.pitt.edu!minerva!billc
From: billc@minerva.phyast.pitt.edu (Morbius)
Newsgroups: talk.origins,alt.atheism,talk.religion.misc
Subject: The fundamental problem with "God outside of time"
Date: 20 Jan 1995 23:55:34 GMT
Organization: Department of Physics & Astronomy, University of Pittsburgh

In article <3fmtp9$qr1@panix2.panix.com> kv07@panix.com (Kurt vonRoeschlaub) writes:
>In article <3fkk7k$3ko@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM> wbarwell@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM (William Barwell) writes:
>>So how do things GET started?  Or do we drop the ideas about time here?
>
>  I'm afraid you are failing to appreciate the concept.
>
>  To phrase your question in terms of the mathematical model I presented,
>you ask "So at what value of t does the mathematician choose the stochastic
>process."  Since t doesn't apply outside the stochastic process the entire
>question is meaningless.
>
>  Now, perhaps there is some "time like" axis applying to the space occupied
>by God, but I'm not one to speculate on such things, especially when the
>whole thing is hypothetical to begin with.


But speculate about it you must, because without that "time like" axis
your God can't *do* anything. It all comes down to the concept of
causality, since you claim that God somehow caused the universe to come
into existence. What you fail to realize is that causality is a consequence
of a *physical mechanism*. In space-time it is a space-time symmetry, such
as the Poincare group symmetry in relativistic theories, plus a boundary
condition (to distinguish between future-to-past and past-to-future
causal mechanisms) which lead to causality. Causality is therefore a
property of a space-time, and is meaningless outside of one. If you want
to consider a "cause" of space-time, then you must define what causality
means apart from, or "outside of" space-time. Here are some options:

1. You can posit that space-time and God are embedded in some higher
dimensional metaspace-time, and that God's can act as a consequence
of a symmetry in that space. Problem: who created the metaspace-time?
This leads to an infinite regress of (meta^oo)Gods and (meta^oo)space-times.

2. You can posit that all that we call the universe is merely a bubble
of space-time which God inflated off of another universe in which he is
embedded. Problem: who created the other universe? More infinite regress.

3. You can come up with a physical mechanism for causality which is
independent of any space-time. In other words, you can show *how* an
event A can "cause" an event B when neither A nor B is in any kind
of space-time. Good luck!

4. You can accept that it just doesn't make sense to ask what is the
cause of the universe. In the words of Hawking: "The universe would
be completely self-contained and unaffected by anything outside itself.
It would neither be created nor destroyed. It would just BE."


I believe that the universe is just there; that it makes no sense to
ask what is its cause. Does anyone have evidence for another option,
in light of the difficulties I have discussed above?


-Morbius